Monday, April 11, 2011

Bank gives man foreclosed Jacksonville house for free


BOB SELF/The Times-Union

Perry Laspina looks around the mold covered walls of his Panama Gardens home that has been closed up and vacant while he dealt with the mortgage company's efforts to foreclose on the property.
Posted: April 10, 2011 - 12:00am

AWESOME NEWS PERRY!!! CONGRATS!!

Perry Laspina was in the middle of foreclosure with the possibility of losing the house he owned in Jacksonville. Then the mail came one day in late January telling him that the house was his.

Despite the $72,000 mortgage that he barely paid anything on, despite the foreclosure ... the house was his.

In the middle of foreclosures gone wild, of a system overloaded by sheer volume, judicial investigations and allegations of corners cut, Laspina ended up with the house.

Despite the fact that he didn't have an attorney in the foreclosure proceedings, the mortgage holder simply gave up and walked away.

"I've never seen anything like this in my life," he said.

It's a tale populated with many of the major players in the national foreclosure drama: The law firm of David Stern, the Mortgage Electronic Registration Systems (better known as MERS) and a mortgage packaged with others and sold into a securitized trust.

Here's how it happened.

Back in 2006, Laspina, a used-car dealer based in South Florida, had some extra money and decided to buy some real estate that he could resell quickly at a profit. It was, after all, the height of the housing boom with prices skyrocketing and mortgage money easily available.

"Since everyone else was making money flipping houses, I figured I would, too," he said.

He wasn't familiar with Jacksonville, but his brother owned a house in Fernandina Beach and found the house on Oakwood Street in the Panama Gardens neighborhood of Jacksonville off North Main Street.

It's an old neighborhood where most of the houses are still well-maintained.

Laspina bought the house for $80,000, putting $8,000 down and taking out an adjustable rate mortgage with EquiFirst for the remaining $72,000 with an interest rate of 9.5 percent.

EquiFirst, based in Charlotte, N.C., was one of the nation's leading sub-prime lenders in 2006. But it soon fell victim to the housing and mortgage industry collapse and it closed in 2009.

EquiFirst kept few of the mortgages it wrote; most were packaged and sold to securitized trusts which were owned by investors.

Laspina wasn't worried about the interest rate.

"It didn't matter," he said. "I figured I'm going to flip this house within six months, maybe three months."

He also figured he'd get about $120,000 for it after he did a bit of work on it, mostly tearing up the carpet and stripping the paint that covered the hardwood floors.

"But right after I put it on the market, the crash came," he said. "I couldn't sell it, I couldn't rent it."

By 2008, the increases on his payments kicked in, going from an initial payment of $605 to $894 and then $1,058 in less than a year. He quit making payments, and in September of that year, a foreclosure notice was filed against him. The plaintiff was the U.S. Bank National Association, which was simply acting as the trustee for an unnamed trust that now owned the mortgage.

The court file says that Laspina lost his foreclosure case in February 2009. A sale date was set, then postponed and then cancelled, all at the plaintiff's request, later that year.

But the next year, the plaintiff requested that it all be vacated - the suit, the judgment, all of it. In October, Circuit Judge Waddell Wallace signed the order.

In December, officials for MERS, which acted as the mortgage holder, signed and filed the documents saying it "has received full payment and satisfaction ... and does hereby cancel and discharge said mortgage."

Laspina had paid less than $1,000 toward the principal on his $72,000 loan.

That's what happened. But there are questions about why.

"This is crazy," attorney David Goldman said as he looked over the files at the Times-Union's request.

"They won," he said referring to the mortgage holder. "They're standing at the goal line, and they just need to sell the house."

"One possibility is that they did it by mistake," said Chip Parker, an attorney who specializes in foreclosure defense. "There are just so many cases out there."

One issue possibly complicating the case is that the plaintiff's attorney was David Stern, whose Southeast Florida law firm became the poster child for foreclosure mills. In 2009 alone, it handled 70,000 foreclosure cases, according to news reports, and employed more than 1,000 people.

But after questions were raised about the practice, the Florida attorney general announced an investigation of possibly fraudulent paperwork at Stern and two other firms. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, along with many banks, dropped him as their primary foreclosure attorney.

Stern's firm quit its foreclosure work at the end of March.

MERS itself has been the subject of plenty of controversy. The electronic registration and tracking system helps banks package, buy and sell mortgages without the time and money that used to be required to record each transaction.

MERS is named the nominee on these loans, but it now faces lawsuits across the country seeking unpaid recording fees that normally go to local governments, and several courts have rejected MERS' role in bringing foreclosures.

Parker also theorized that the mortgage owner simply made a business decision.

"The lender was faced with retaining new counsel," Parker said. "Maybe it looked at the value of the property, realized it's way, way underwater and simply not worth it."

That appears to be the case, though the mortgage holder provided few details when contacted.

The loan was being serviced by America's Servicing Co., a subsidiary of Wells Fargo.

"The investor on the loan, the bondholder on the trust, decided to write off the loan balance," said a Wells Fargo spokesman, "because of the significant decreased value of the property."

He declined to give more details or further explanation.

The home — two bedrooms, one bath and 1,120 square feet — is structurally solid, Laspina said. But many of the interior walls are covered with mold ever since the coils were stolen from the air conditioner.

It's appraised at $46,000 by the Duval County appraiser's office in a neighborhood that has inconsistent values.

The house next door sold for $65,000 in January after selling for $91,000 in 2003. A house across the street sold for $153,500 in 2008. But another a couple of houses away was purchased from a bank for $23,000 a year ago after selling for $140,000 in 2006.

"It's a good neighborhood," said Jackie Painter, whose family first moved to Panama Gardens in 1958. She spent most of the past decade in Michigan, but when she wanted to move back south, she moved to the neighborhood where her younger sister and 99-year-old mother still live.

"Some of the houses were in really bad shape for awhile," she said. "But people have come in and fixed them up. They're good neighbors. We get a little riff raff, a few prostitutes will walk down the street, but when they see us watching, they scatter."

Goldman cautioned about anyone expecting to duplicate Laspina's good luck.

"I don't think it's representative," he said. "Someone won the lottery here. There's a lot of people out there saying they can get you your house free, but they're just selling you something. It's a one-in-a-million thing."

As for Laspina, he plans to clean the mold, mow the lawn and try to sell the house.

"I could certainly use the money," he said.

roger.bull@jacksonville.com, (904) 359-4296
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Comments (41)

By suze | 04/10/11 - 09:50 am

I wish my mortgage company would accidentally send me one of those letters. We actually live in our house, this guy was just trying to make s fast buck. Stuff like this usually never happens to the people who actually need it.
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By MonkeyBoy | 04/10/11 - 10:31 am

Hope it has a good security system for that neighborhood.
Otherwise, whatever he might put into the house, the night crawling thieves that seem to breed in Jax like mosquitoes, will soon possess.
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By The Onionist | 04/10/11 - 11:00 am

Ummm, the new owner is probably on the hook for an additional $72,000 of additional income that can now be taxed by the IRS.
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By jdhunter | 04/10/11 - 11:28 am

It is painfully perverse that a house flipper, one of the opportunistic cadre of conspiring pirates' cooperatives that CAUSED the boom & bust, should come out unjustly enriched.
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By KJ | 04/10/11 - 11:44 am

It's too bad the bank didn't take the house and give it to a needy family instead.

This is why people who do the right thing get so mad.

Why don't the banks make a one month mortgage payment for everyone who has paid every payment on time since the economy dumped?

Instead of the government giving tax breaks to big business, how about giving us some tax breaks? Tax the UN, the oil companies and companies like GE before you tax me. My pockets are empty, there ain't no more to get!

We see people get free housing, money for not working year after year, and yet when things get tight for us, we're only asked to give more.

It's very frustrating.
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By Northside Patriot | 04/10/11 - 11:45 am

He might be in for a surprise when he tries to sell this house. If this was a "mistake", then it is bound to come to light during the sell and all the paperwork, etc. He may be stuck with this house forever, unless he can find a cash buyer. Even then, it is going to open it all back up when the new owner files for the deed, etc. I would like to know what happens with this story down the road.
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By greyie | 04/10/11 - 12:13 pm

I hope the new Tax Commissioner-To-Be reads this story and ensures that he is taxed appropriately for this property. Hopefully he's on the hook for all of the taxes, since he hasn't been paying into the escrow account. Also, I liked the idea that someone above had about the IRS getting involved and taxing him for the value of the house as income. He might not be grinning when this is all said and done.
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By EducationMatters | 04/10/11 - 01:22 pm

Ignore the spammer above who provided a website to "help" homeowners struggling with mortgage debt. Her site is involved with the invitingly-named "Neighborhood Homeowners Assistance of America" (NACA) led by the flamboyant Bruce Marks. Mr. Marks calls himself a "bank terrorist," has engaged in many bizarre, intrusive, and frightening acts, like piling furniture on the front lawn of a bank executive and threatening to contact the children of such executives, and has been arrested for his intimidating (and no doubt profitable) antics.

There is legitimate help available from REAL non-profit organizations, agencies, and programs who will charge you nothing for their capable assistance. Start with Legal Aid of Jacksonville, Inc.
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By TruthAboutMold | 04/10/11 - 01:27 pm

It's easy to see what happened. The banks and the insurance industry (and other big business stakeholders) know the dangers of toxic mold. The bank doesn't want this house because it would cost more than it's worth to "try" to repair it and it probably still won't be safe to inhabit. For accurate information about the health effects of mold, go to http://truthaboutmold.info.
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By blackpowerafropick | 04/10/11 - 01:41 pm

You've given me a brilliant marketing idea -- I'm going to invent some imitation mold spray. Freaking paint the inside of a house going into foreclosure and the bank will break and run.

Then repaint and carry on with your mortgage-free life!
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By Todd_Parker | 04/10/11 - 04:11 pm

There is plenty of help for people who are struggling to make mortgage payments or missing them altogether. But if you've never missed a payment and never been late but just want a better rate, you can't get one if your home is underwater. That doesn't seem fair to me.
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By Genie | 04/10/11 - 05:56 pm

Can it be his blessing? Maybe he planted some good seeds and now his harvest has come. If you need to sell, do so and give some of the proceeds to someone or organization to help someone else. God bless.
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By Empty Plate | 04/10/11 - 06:07 pm

When I lost my mortgage payments on the horse races, my mortgage company had no mercy on me. Instead, they hauled me into court, and the rocket docket foreclosed my house. When I left the courtroom that day, I went home to find my locks replaced, and I no longer had the right key to get into my house. So at 72 years old, I moved back in with my parents and I've been with them ever since. My father didn't want to give me my old room back, but mother insisted that I be allowed to stay. So what did my father do? I'll tell you what he did. He pitched a tent in the back yard, ran an extension cord out to it for my computer and told me the rain would be my running water. He then said I should pray for rain every day. I've been living in that tent for almost three years now. How do you like them apples, young people? I want a free house. It's time for the bank to pay me what it owes me.
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By Empty Plate | 04/10/11 - 06:08 pm

Blah!
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By VoiceOfReason | 04/10/11 - 06:21 pm

@Teneshia LaFaye, written to @Education Matters

> I am a degreed journalist who left a great job as an award-winning
> writer for The Florida Times-Union to be an educator
>
> But considering how you trashed my experience without fully
> educating yourself, I'm going to reconsider whether to believe
> anything you write.

Since it appears your last post was deleted as spam, I have to ask whether we should believe anything you write either, unless it's sports-related or gossip, both of which seem to be your focus after a quick review of your blog.

This is not to say that blogging about sports or celebrity news intrinsically makes your posts unreliable, but it's somewhat cavelier of you to suggest that because another poster found the site you suggested to be questionable that they were wrong to assume you might be a spammer. Don't you agree?
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By Max42 | 04/10/11 - 06:23 pm

"The investor on the loan, the bondholder on the trust, decided to write off the loan balance," said a Wells Fargo spokesman, "because of the significant decreased value of the property." "He declined to give more details or further explanation."

All too often, this means Fannie or Freddie - that's we tax payers - was left holding the bag. Since both are bankrupt, and off of the government's official accounting records, they are free to do whatever suits them at the moment. There is zero - and I mean zero - accountability. Since the government's official policy is to keep as many people in their homes as possible, this loan default was probably added to the debt - our debt. If these two government sponsored, fraudulent, incompetent organizations are not a serious part of the debt and deficit discussions in the next 6 months, then we'll know the ultimate fix is in with the two major parties.

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One can not change the wind, but one can adjust the sails.

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By EAphel8s | 04/10/11 - 07:15 pm

A degreed journalist specializing in run-on sentences. Perhaps she received her degree FREE.
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By LouieTheGayLiberal | 04/10/11 - 07:47 pm

The bank must have realized that they'd have to pay someone to live there. Oh my, such a dump!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
We owned "Gay" before Santa Clause did!
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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By AndOce | 04/10/11 - 07:57 pm

Oh, I don't know, maybe with some flowers and a few throw pillows it might brighten up a bit.

______________________________________
The blood of patriots and the water of logic flow down different streams.
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By lavald | 04/10/11 - 08:01 pm

I love this story. It's amazing how many people can complain about someone's good fortune, regardless of how he obtained it. Have you stopped to consider that maybe you are lacking or unable to get ahead because you are focus is on someone else? Hmm! I have had many tough breaks in my life and I have worked my way through them but I will not focus on what someone else has.
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By EAphel8s | 04/10/11 - 08:57 pm

I have no doubt that you are an intelligent, educated and hardworking woman, Teneshia. But I would like to know if your postings here are part of the volunteer work required to maintain a NACA facilitated loan.
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By conover farnsworth | 04/10/11 - 10:08 pm

Many of the responses are emblematic of the prevailing attitude of the ignorant masses in this country. Here we have someone that might just possibly have a stroke of good fortune, and we have an entire group of people ready to drag him down because of his good fortune. Some hope that the IRS gets the better of him, others hope that some other government alphabet soup agency comes in and "rights" this alleged "injustice" upon humanity. This is emblematic of liberalism at its finest. No one gets ahead, either by luck or hard work. We all are destined to be equally miserable, but supposedly equal nonetheless. What to do if someone is about to get ahead in life? Quick, call the government, they must be violating some sort of law. You people are pathetic and miserable. You will never amount to anything in life, you will constantly rail against all of the supposed "social injustices" holding you down rather that getting off of your fat sorry rear ends to better your lives. Oh, by the way, even if the IRS taxes him on his gain, this guy now has a financial asset that will provide him with a constant cash flow and a never ending source of write offs that will allow him to offset his income and drastically reduce his taxes. I, for one, congratulate you sir. Be sure to dot your I's, cross your T's, and don't let the perpetual losers in life try to drag you down. Use this to your advantage. For all of you miserable crybabies out there that devote your every waking moment to dragging others down, take a good look at yourselves and your purpose in life. Are you here to evenly spread misery, or to better your lot in life and that of your family? Think about it.
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By Max42 | 04/10/11 - 09:38 pm

Teneshia, as a "degreed journalist" (sic) perhaps you are interested in helping all of us find out just who the "investor on this loan" was, since it seems apparent that the TU and its still full time journalists are not going to do so. Aren't you even curious?

Are you only interested in people who don'tmind getting a free ride, or are you also interested in the facts about the monumental mortgage financial failure that will saddle honest Americans with debt for decades to come?

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One can not change the wind, but one can adjust the sails.

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By foreclosureguy | 04/10/11 - 11:17 pm

Well I would like to say something to all of you NEGATIVE JUDGEMENTAL people out there who know NOTHING what-so-ever about my life or my current financial situation. I didnt get the house for FREE, I put an $8,000 down payment, over $4,000 in closing costs, as well as almost $1,000 in miss. expences!!! As well as over $10,000 in materials to fix it up RIGHT, and atleast another $10,000 in labor!!! Then I made payments for over 2-years, as well as paying the property taxes and insurance until now!!! Then the A/C unit was stolen for the scrap copper & aluminum in it and the mortgage holder kept the my insurance check because the loan was in default... NO, I'm not LEGALLY obligated for the $72,000 of debt in this situation!!! And OH, I forgot to mention the numerous "HOMELESS PEOPLE" that lost their homes that I allowed to stay in the house for the last two WINTERS, while I PAID for the UTILITIES and they maintained the property for me!!! "NO" LEGALLY nothing can come back to or on ANYONE!!! The extremely "MINOR" level of mold in the home is "HARMLESS!!! NOW, to Genie, Lavald, and Conover Farnsworth for your very KIND words!!! I recently came to the rescue of a homeless woman who was hit by an SUV driven by a careless young lady talking on a cell phone in Fernandina Beach, but unfortunately she passed away due to severe internal injuries after being air-lifted to Shands Trauma Unit.
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By EducationMatters | 04/11/11 - 12:27 am

Surely we can all agree on this simple maxim: No one should participate in any financial transaction with any individual or company without first doing his/her "due diligence," i.e., research, about that person or business. End of story.

On a different matter: Although I am aware that there is a blog on this site called "Education Matters," I am not its author.
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By johncb1963 | 04/11/11 - 02:55 am

Hey foreclosure,you bought it,you signed a contract,you agreed to pay for it,and you DIDNT.Its that simple.AS my dad used to say "nothing in life is free" so someone,somewhere is indeed paying for your "free" house.As far as helping out homeless people,etc,very admirable,but it still doesnt excuse your taking something you did not PAY for.I dont give a hoot about paperwork mistakes,blah,blah,blah,your wrong,and I bet you know it,Karma is a b*tch, friend.

johncb

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By greyie | 04/11/11 - 07:45 am

The only pathetic people here are the foreclosure guy and his defenders. I don't owe a cent on my house and I pay all of my bills. I'm responsible enough to never live above my means. I didn't squander my money through the years and if I couldn't pay for it, I didn't buy it. Some idiot thinks that's called being a 'liberal'. There's nothing 'lucky' about not paying for something you're obligated to pay. Foreclosure guy comes on here and talks about what a wonderful person he is. Simple fact is, you're a bum and you don't pay your bills.
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By the_yes_man | 04/11/11 - 08:09 am

FREE?

Now that is a downright lie. Somebody's paying for it.

It shows what a moocher you truly are.

That is for both the foreclosure guy and the wannabe reporter.
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By Conservative4life | 04/11/11 - 08:20 am

Yeah Foreclosure guy I hate to tell you this but I am not shedding a tear for you. You want sympathy because you bought a house for the sheer purpose of making a profit on it, then when your wise investment tanked, you stopped paying the bill. What you thought because it was unfair you did not owe them. Nice.

I should attempt that with JEA. You got lucky, sell the place and go take your profiteering somewhere else. I have no issues with someone making money, I do however have an issue with someone not standing by and being responsible for their bad decisions.

Oh and Teneshia, I got news for you, the thing that ticks everyone off is that as usual the people that FOLLOW the flipping rules get no help. Only the screwups, morons, and greedy dimwits who tried to get something for nothing. I was offered a 5-1 and 7-1 ARM with AWESOME rates 7 years ago. I saw where the market was going and got my fixed rate because I wanted avoid this VERY situation. Now I am supposed to feel bad because some people made a bad choice out of greed? Sorry, the market saying still applies, buyer beware. My issue is people should be held accountable for their bad decisions, I am being held accountable for my good ones. BUT I expect this from the "no responsibility/bailout" generation. Taking responsibility for choices is not this new generations strong suit.

Bringing the light of truth to the darkness of liberal lies.

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By Max42 | 04/11/11 - 08:32 am

foreclosureguy, who held the loan paper when it was "forgiven"? Do you even know?

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One can not change the wind, but one can adjust the sails.

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By Max42 | 04/11/11 - 08:36 am

www.mytensense.com

This website requires a membership which leads to web traffic credits for the owner. It also advertises her books - for sale. The TU has decided it's not "spam". Must be some new rules.......

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One can not change the wind, but one can adjust the sails.

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By madlibrarian | 04/11/11 - 10:08 am

@Teneshia LaFaye, and @Education Matters can you just direct your comments to the story at hand. @Teneshia LaFaye, as an award winning journalist that should be easy for you to do.

Just let me tell you that NACA is a scam organization they have the apperance of being legit but if you dig into the orginaztion you get the real picture.....

This man thinks he got this house for free he should have never done this article. I bet the trouble will start for him now. Will the real owner stand up......
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By jacksonville021 | 04/11/11 - 10:10 am

So what did we learn today, kids? That's right. If you don't pay your mortgage, the bank will just give up and give you your house for free. Now let's all try it. This will be fun!! YAY!! Tomorrows lesson will be: How to not pay your cell phone bill then just go to another cell company and get another one. YAY!!! Isn't mooching fun? YAY!!!
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By Spartacus | 04/11/11 - 12:12 pm

Non-cooperation is a most valid practice of civil disobedience.
@ jacksonville021: Your humorous suggestions reflect a great historical tradition that is becoming more and more practical for those of us who are “...mad as (heck) and not going to take it anymore!” This system is inherently unfair and unjust. What sort of person in their right mind would cooperate with it in the first place? Only the moneyed and all of you delusional nationalists. I’m out.

- - -
“I should like to be able to love my country and love justice.”
Albert Camus - French novelist, essayist and playwright, recipient of the 1957 Nobel Prize for literature

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By paul.hibbert | 04/11/11 - 02:27 pm

Wow, a free home! Not a bad deal. It shouldn't be too expensive to clean up that mold, will it? Is it the kind of thing where the walls would need to be rebuilt or can it just be cleaned? I just found mold in my rental unit and I'm bringing in a company that came very highly recommended. They said they can clean everything without having to remove any drywall, but I guess that's because we're taking quick action. The company is called Decon ProGreen, has anyone ever heard of them? I'm supposed to meet them later to make it official and I'd like to find out if anyone has used them before.
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By Foreclosure Defense | 04/11/11 - 05:59 pm

When I was quoted in the article, I was not aware that there was mold in the home. I have been involved in many mold litigation cases and the bank appears to have pulled a fast one over on the homeowner by shifting the liability and cleanup cost to the homeowner.

While it may appear to have been a mistake, it was a clearly calculated move to remove liability from their books.

Its is clear now that the bank was removing a liability from their books. The cost to clean the property properly to attempt to remove the mold could have easily been more than the $40,000 that the property was worth.

This homeowner did not win the lottery, the just got taken advantage of by the bank again. Hopefully, the owner, will properly disclose the mold or he could be purchasing a lawsuit.

The best thing the homeowner could do is tear down the home and sell the uncontaminated land.

---

David Goldman
Apple Law FIrm PLLC
http://www.FloridaForeclosureDefenseLawyersBlog.com
904-685-1200

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By Max42 | 04/11/11 - 07:17 pm

Mr. Goldman, Mr. Laspina knew, or as you lawyers are so fond of saying, should have known, exactly what he what he was buying as an investment. Got that, Mr. Goldman? Not his "dream home of a lifetime" but an investment in Jacksonville from a man who lives in Ft Lauderdale. If the house had mold, or subsequently acquired mold, the responsibility is entirely on Mr. Laspina. If this is your legal opinion, based on the facts presented by the TU, I would never hire you as a lawyer for any purpose, anytime. Ethics, Mr. Goldman, still count in some circles of our society.

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One can not change the wind, but one can adjust the sails.

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By Foreclosure Defense | 04/11/11 - 09:03 pm

The mold appears to have been caused by the removal or theft of the air-conditioner. I am not saying that Mr. Laspina should not have responsibility for the home or the mortgage. My point was it is not the windfall that some think it is.

While you can make it appear that the mold is gone, it is very expensive to actually clean and repair the home properly. I have personal experience with a home where the cost to repair the home's damage from the mold was far in excess of the cost to tear down the home and rebuild it. On a property that is worth so little, the chance that there is any value in the home after the proper repairs are made is slight. It is possible that the land has some value in excess of the cost to remove the home, but after the expense and trouble, what will be left.

The bank obviously realized this and made a decision to end the litigation and not pursue the mortgage. I do not think it was a mistake that they did this.

David Goldman
Apple Law FIrm PLLC
http://www.FloridaForeclosureDefenseLawyersBlog.com
904-685-1200

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By PhDBlack | 04/11/11 - 09:44 pm

Well his homw owner insurance can tke care of that mold. I have a friend of homewoner's insurance took care of her mold clean up. Well does he have any......
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By VoiceOfReason | 04/11/11 - 09:54 pm

@foreclosureguy

You made a promise and then broke it. How much sympathy do you think you'll get here?
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By Max42 | 04/11/11 - 10:24 pm

Mr. Goldman, you originally wrote: ....the bank appears to have pulled a fast one over on the homeowner by shifting the liability and cleanup cost to the homeowner." ".........he just got taken advantage of by the bank again."

Clearly, in your original comments, you portrayed the bank as the villain and owner as the victim. In your last comments you claim: " I am not saying that Mr. Laspina should not have responsibility for the home or the mortgage." That would include the mold.

So which is it, Mr. Goldman? Was the owner responsible for the investment property he purchased, or was he "taken advantage of" by the bank?

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One can not change the wind, but one can adjust the sails.
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